Automatic Transmissions?
Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2020 6:16 pm
I'm repairing a new to me 77 530i. Is there an easy way to tell if the automatic is a ZF or Borg Warner...markings? Was one considered more trouble free than the other?
The E12 Registry
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Easiest way to tell is the shifter stick, the BW-65 has an old school T-bar handle, the ZF 3HP22 has a rounded handle, like the yellow e12 in this video. So this car has been upgraded to the later type.canada karl wrote: ↑Thu Jun 25, 2020 6:16 pm I'm repairing a new to me 77 530i. Is there an easy way to tell if the automatic is a ZF or Borg Warner...markings? Was one considered more trouble free than the other?
You're generalizing Mike. The Ford C4, Chrysler A904 & 727 Torqueflites, GM THM 350 & 400 were all great, but after that there came a lot of junk. I wouldn't want a car with the THM 700R4, shifts were jerky, and jolty, hunting etc. Once the THM 350 was gone, I would go with the BW T5 manual.keehn wrote: ↑Thu Jul 09, 2020 7:00 am Karl,
In my experience throughout the years and various generations of bimmers (E12, E28, E34, E38, E46, E53), I have tried to avoid ZF as much as possible. They seem to enjoy "complicating" parts that have no business being complicated. I have dug through ZF and GM transmissions from my various bimmers and, time and again, ZF has more parts to break, whereas GM keeps everything modular (and cheaper rebuild parts too!). Other manufacturers, such as GM...and yes, Borg-Warner, are legendary for their transmissions, and have kept theirs to KISS-like standards. Also, GM and Borg-Warner are U.S.-based companies, where the GM automatic transmission was born (hydra-matic if I recall correctly....).
There are known truths in the automobile world, such as:
BMW's make great I6 engines (and boxers for beemers).
GM/Borg-Warner make great auto transmissions.
Getrag makes great manual transmissions.
porsche is just a fancy and fast Volkswagen.
Mercedes....um...haul BMWs to the dealership
Mike
Tlake,tlake wrote: ↑Thu Jul 09, 2020 11:20 amYou're generalizing Mike. The Ford C4, Chrysler A904 & 727 Torqueflites, GM THM 350 & 400 were all great, but after that there came a lot of junk. I wouldn't want a car with the THM 700R4, shifts were jerky, and jolty, hunting etc. Once the THM 350 was gone, I would go with the BW T5 manual.keehn wrote: ↑Thu Jul 09, 2020 7:00 am Karl,
In my experience throughout the years and various generations of bimmers (E12, E28, E34, E38, E46, E53), I have tried to avoid ZF as much as possible. They seem to enjoy "complicating" parts that have no business being complicated. I have dug through ZF and GM transmissions from my various bimmers and, time and again, ZF has more parts to break, whereas GM keeps everything modular (and cheaper rebuild parts too!). Other manufacturers, such as GM...and yes, Borg-Warner, are legendary for their transmissions, and have kept theirs to KISS-like standards. Also, GM and Borg-Warner are U.S.-based companies, where the GM automatic transmission was born (hydra-matic if I recall correctly....).
There are known truths in the automobile world, such as:
BMW's make great I6 engines (and boxers for beemers).
GM/Borg-Warner make great auto transmissions.
Getrag makes great manual transmissions.
porsche is just a fancy and fast Volkswagen.
Mercedes....um...haul BMWs to the dealership
Mike
I found the BW65 couldn't handle that much torque, I replaced the one in my '76 with the ZF 3HP22 almost 25 years ago and have had no problems, even with the 3.5L. With the 3.64 diff ratio it works well. The ZF 4HP22 has been a problem for some people because of revving the engine in neutral for emissions testing though.
By the time the V8 7 series came around they were on the 5HP 22, or later? Those are really a generation beyond. The old BW-65 and the earlier ZF 3HP 20 used old fashioned brake bands, that could stretch. The 3HP 22 used a Simpson gearset and clutches, which was US practice, and this was definitely better. I heard they beefed up the 3HP 22 for the M90 and M102 engines, but never did find out what changes they made.keehn wrote: ↑Thu Jul 09, 2020 12:23 pmTlake,tlake wrote: ↑Thu Jul 09, 2020 11:20 amYou're generalizing Mike. The Ford C4, Chrysler A904 & 727 Torqueflites, GM THM 350 & 400 were all great, but after that there came a lot of junk. I wouldn't want a car with the THM 700R4, shifts were jerky, and jolty, hunting etc. Once the THM 350 was gone, I would go with the BW T5 manual.keehn wrote: ↑Thu Jul 09, 2020 7:00 am Karl,
In my experience throughout the years and various generations of bimmers (E12, E28, E34, E38, E46, E53), I have tried to avoid ZF as much as possible. They seem to enjoy "complicating" parts that have no business being complicated. I have dug through ZF and GM transmissions from my various bimmers and, time and again, ZF has more parts to break, whereas GM keeps everything modular (and cheaper rebuild parts too!). Other manufacturers, such as GM...and yes, Borg-Warner, are legendary for their transmissions, and have kept theirs to KISS-like standards. Also, GM and Borg-Warner are U.S.-based companies, where the GM automatic transmission was born (hydra-matic if I recall correctly....).
There are known truths in the automobile world, such as:
BMW's make great I6 engines (and boxers for beemers).
GM/Borg-Warner make great auto transmissions.
Getrag makes great manual transmissions.
porsche is just a fancy and fast Volkswagen.
Mercedes....um...haul BMWs to the dealership
Mike
I found the BW65 couldn't handle that much torque, I replaced the one in my '76 with the ZF 3HP22 almost 25 years ago and have had no problems, even with the 3.5L. With the 3.64 diff ratio it works well. The ZF 4HP22 has been a problem for some people because of revving the engine in neutral for emissions testing though.
Of course I'm generalizing Case in point: I had to order a master rebuild kit with steels for my 2013 Buick Enclave due to the radiator/trans cooler leaking together, so no, GM has some turds in their portfolio as well. But whatever magic BMW endows upon the GM's that it selects, they seem (generally, of course) to perform better than ZF counterparts.
However, I also have experience tearing into ZF transmissions and have found they are generally more complicated than their GM counterparts. I have my old ATSG manuals on both the GM and ZF trans for the E38 class somewhere in my clutter that I read cover to cover, remarking at the stark comparisons between the two machines. I remember mildly annoying my wife and amusing my kids when I would point out the differences while watching TV on the couch! At one of my old duty stations (San DIego - GREAT weather, but PRICY!) I owned a 98 E38 that had the ZF trans. Well, it broke down on me, and I went to one of the many pick-and-pulls in the area and sourced the GM equivalent. I don't remember the specifics, but all I had to do with that trans was remove ALL of the fluid, refill with filter, and bolt it back in. Yes, of course I put a new torque converter in. I was pleasantly surprised when I didn't have to use WinKFP to re-code the new transmission; it just bolted up and ran well. Unfortunately, I sold the girl when I PCS'd to my next duty station, as was the way of things when I was still in the Navy
Mike
I know a lot of people get bugged by the highway cruising, but the old Getrag 262 4 speed was nice. The earlier ZF (it had BW synchronizers) 4 speed had a lighter feel, but the 2nd gear synchro got worn with the 2.8L, so for 1972 the 4 speed got beefed up for the new 3 liter.canada karl wrote: ↑Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:39 pm In any event the Getrag 265 5 speed is the best gearbox for an E12. More fun to drive and better gas mileage. IMHO