Problems with starter (this is the 3rd one I've been thru)

[munkeeboi83]

Sun:
I went down to Irvine on Sunday to go watch the Super Bowl and after the game my buddy wanted to try out my car, so I went and tried to start up the car and it just clicked and nothing happened. I thought maybe I might have left the lights on, but all the lights were very bright and the battery was fully charged. I immediately went to my drunk and grabbed the cranking thing for the jack to lift up the car and took that and banged the starter a few times and the car started right up.

Mon:
I jumped in the car and tried to start up the car, but it didn't start even with banging the starter profusely. So I had to borrow a friend's car to work that day. I had a spare starter in the garage and put that in when I got home. I noticed the old starter looked fine except for some stains prob from the radiator fluid I must have spilled when I changed out the expansion tank. I noticed some goey/greasy stuff that was flung to the sides of the starter. When I spun the gear, it spun freely and everything looked normal.

When I tried starting up the car, it clicked and didn't start up. This was a brand new starter and I was wondering why it didn't turn the engine. I had to bang the starter a few times and then the car started up. The car started up without any difficulties and problems after that. It even started up without any incidents in the morning when it was cold. I did have to bang the starter outside of this restaurant when I forgot the car was left in gear and tried to start it. I always leave it in neutral.

Wed:
After work, I jumped in my car and tried to start the car but it just clicked again. I took out a crow bar I left in the backseat and tried to bang the starter but still to no avail. I had to call AAA and get the car towed home. I ordered a new starter and will put in after work tomorrow.

Questions:
Starer that's in there right now (bad), which is a Bosch remanufactured.

- I just put in a new starter on Mon afternoon. The new starter has never touched water or any liquid or has been dropped or anything.
- I can put in a new starter tomorrow, but I think it might be something else.
- Could it be the starter relay? Where is that located?
- The wires and leads look good and clean. I think I need to test them prob with a digital multimeter.
- Something is not engaging the starter, but I don't know what it is.
- I should have prob dissected the old/bad starter to find out what was really wrong. I should have taken it to Autozone to test it.

Any help or guidance will be appreciated.

[grumpsjr]

I just went through this exact same process with my car. Clean the battery terminals and the cables that attach to the battery. If they're not shiny bright, even if they're not corroded, it can degrade the connection enough to get the dreaded single click - even with a brand new battery. AMHIK.


Best of luck,
Brian

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 10, 2010, at 20:33, "munkeeboi83" <keithkchu@gmail.com (keithkchu@gmail.com)> wrote:

Sun:
I went down to Irvine on Sunday to go watch the Super Bowl and after the game my buddy wanted to try out my car, so I went and tried to start up the car and it just clicked and nothing happened. I thought maybe I might have left the lights on, but all the lights were very bright and the battery was fully charged. I immediately went to my drunk and grabbed the cranking thing for the jack to lift up the car and took that and banged the starter a few times and the car started right up.

Mon:
I jumped in the car and tried to start up the car, but it didn't start even with banging the starter profusely. So I had to borrow a friend's car to work that day. I had a spare starter in the garage and put that in when I got home. I noticed the old starter looked fine except for some stains prob from the radiator fluid I must have spilled when I changed out the expansion tank. I noticed some goey/greasy stuff that was flung to the sides of the starter. When I spun the gear, it spun freely and everything looked normal.

When I tried starting up the car, it clicked and didn't start up. This was a brand new starter and I was wondering why it didn't turn the engine. I had to bang the starter a few times and then the car started up. The car started up without any difficulties and problems after that. It even started up without any incidents in the morning when it was cold. I did have to bang the starter outside of this restaurant when I forgot the car was left in gear and tried to start it. I always leave it in neutral.

Wed:
After work, I jumped in my car and tried to start the car but it just clicked again. I took out a crow bar I left in the backseat and tried to bang the starter but still to no avail. I had to call AAA and get the car towed home. I ordered a new starter and will put in after work tomorrow.

Questions:
Starer that's in there right now (bad), which is a Bosch remanufactured.

- I just put in a new starter on Mon afternoon. The new starter has never touched water or any liquid or has been dropped or anything.
- I can put in a new starter tomorrow, but I think it might be something else.
- Could it be the starter relay? Where is that located?
- The wires and leads look good and clean. I think I need to test them prob with a digital multimeter.
- Something is not engaging the starter, but I don't know what it is.
- I should have prob dissected the old/bad starter to find out what was really wrong. I should have taken it to Autozone to test it.

Any help or guidance will be appreciated.



1980 BMW 528i

Post generated using Mail2Forum (http://www.mail2forum.com)

[munkeeboi83]

Thanks a lot Brian. I'll definitely try that once I get home. I've been meaning to bring my E12 to my friend's audio shop and have all of the power wiring upgraded, techflexed and shrink wrapped as I do with my other car I use for car audio competitions, but I haven't had the time.

[cpalmer]

Yo.

I've chimed in on this before and it is purely from MY experience with German cars.

I've had 8 now with half of those having starter problems exactly like you are talking about.

After wasting money on mechanics who said "all checks out, SHOULD work..." on two of those, and being stranded dozens of times until the car warmed up, cooled down, got tapped, felt some good mojo from the German Auto gods after I did my "please let my starter work" dance, (etc).....I've came this conclusion-

In proportion to the size and compresion of the engines, German starters are small, or JUST strong enough, and/or not wired enough to turn over UNLESS they are getting a good, solid jump from the battery.


It's your wires somewhere. Either on the starter, altenator, coming from the battery.... Possibly the grounds on the car behind the battery.

You may think the wires are clean, and solid, but have you changed them all yourself since you got the car? The ground with the negative strap? The wire between the alt. and the starter? Are they orig? Do you have copper ends? Are all the ends sprayed with Mystery Oil or the like? I just had this problem with a new starter I put in. It would finally turn and I haven't been stuck, but, after putting a new starter in, I wasn't thrilled it stuck at all.

I Re Checked all the terminals/wires and put in a bigger copper wire between the alt. and the starter and prayed everything, (batt., alt, starter), with Mystery oil a couple months ago and it's been fine ever since.

After my own experience and then reading through this site and learning from Mike W., and especially Lenny D. in this department, it's very obvious that these cars need that proper "pop" at ignition and connections are EVERYTHING and a fully charged battery. I have the felling the culprit is always the wire between the alt. and the starter.

Good luck and hope your on the road again today, in your car!

Cheers.

[Mike W.]

I've found BMW starters to be plenty big enough and long lasting, the only 2 I've replaced in over 600K were bad when I got the car. Not saying all rebuilds especially are the same, but they are long lasting. IMO, most of the starter problems are battery connection related. I don't care how good the connections on the battery look, remove them, clean them to bare metal and reconnect with an anti corrosion washer. Clean the other ends too, although they rarely give a problem.

It's not an auto car is it? The neutral safety switch can be intermittent. What happens when you take a screwdriver to bridge the connections on the starter, or use the diagnostic connector to try and start it?

[Lenny D.]

I agree and have had long life from the two starters I've had. Original lasted well into 200k and the second is doing just fine.

Ahhhh, yes...........connectors.........

[Peter Florance]

This is kind of scary - the only original mechanical part on my 1981, is the starter.

And right now I'm using a 19# Deka battery.

Does your car have the plastic shield over the starter to keep fluid from dripping on it?

+1 on battery cables etc (the factory cable is not expensive and very high quality)

[Mike C]

This is kind of scary - the only original mechanical part on my 1981, is the starter.

And right now I'm using a 19# Deka battery.

Does your car have the plastic shield over the starter to keep fluid from dripping on it?

+1 on battery cables etc (the factory cable is not expensive and very high quality)

Here is my experience with the starter on my 1979 528i.

Intermittent starting with original starter. Had it refurbished. Good starting for a while then back to intermittent. Then to no start at all.
Installed new starter. Better starting, but still intermittent. That was basically multiple key turns to get it to go.
Then started getting worse. Eventually so bad that it was unreliable.

I messed around with the ignition switch at the end of the key cylinder on the tree. If I jiggled it, pushed it up, etc I could get it to start. So, I determined that it was this switch. PIA to replace, so I put in my own (hopefully only a temporary fix). It starts every time with this new switch.

I would advise checking the key ignition switch. Bypass this and see if it will start. You can do this by jumping the starter lead with a screw driver or jumping the connection inside the car. I can give details if you need it.

In my case it was a combination of bad starter and bad ignition (key) switch.

-Mike

[cpalmer]

you mean the ole' "long screw driver across the starter terminals" trick?

and so, what your saying is that it is the actual key not hitting correctly in the steering column? really makes sense to me after all the cars I had problems with having some miles on them.

Good starter, battery, wires, etc.....

Why no go?

Maybe a difference in the amount of times started in the ignition key itself? A little "tired"? Mine were all California cars which means they may have been started 30 times a day, everyday......over 150k, the ones with this problem.

I've read some stuff about the graphite powder and then saw it at Napa a couple weeks ago.

Has anyone tried that?

[Peter Florance]

you mean the ole' "long screw driver across the starter terminals" trick?

and so, what your saying is that it is the actual key not hitting correctly in the steering column? really makes sense to me after all the cars I had problems with having some miles on them.

Good starter, battery, wires, etc.....

Why no go?

Maybe a difference in the amount of times started in the ignition key itself? A little "tired"? Mine were all California cars which means they may have been started 30 times a day, everyday......over 150k, the ones with this problem.

I've read some stuff about the graphite powder and then saw it at Napa a couple weeks ago.

Has anyone tried that?

I think sometimes the actual contact plate starts falling out of the switch body
I changed one a long time ago in the euro; still has original starter.

I'll use a more modern starter in the M30B35 I'm rebuilding

[munkeeboi83]

The old wires looked corroded and burnt out. Even when we stripped the wiring back a little bit. I was stuck at work on Friday and I was twisting the wiring around from the starter to the battery and I was able to get the car to start so I could go back home, so I knew you guys were right from your diagnosis that the wiring was bad. I wish I had my digital camera to show you guys some before and after pictures.

I took my car over to my friend's shop on President's Day and we took a look at the wiring and replaced the stock 6ga wire from the battery to the starter and replaced it with 4ga, crimped/soldered ring terminals, techflexed and heatshrinked everything to make it pretty. We also cleaned up and reterminated the other connections going into the positive terminal. I also media blasted and used a dremel to clean up the battery terminal to get a nice new connection.

The car now starts up very easily and I haven't had a problem since. We took some measurements with a multimeter and we're getting 13.7V off of the alternator and 13.6V off of the battery. So there is about .1 voltage drop from the alternator to the battery. The alternator is pretty old, so I think that's why some of the numbers aren't closer to 14.4V I'm probably going to change the grounds and some of the other wiring when I get a change. Replacing the stock harness seems like it's going to be a pain in the a**.

Over the weekend I also replaced the cold start valve, paired with the new starter and replaced wiring, it's made a big difference when I start the car up the car in the mornings. I still get a split second or so of whirring when I start up the car, but I think a few teeth on the flywheel are broken off.

Thanks a lot for all the replies and everyone's help. =D

[GripGreg]

Keith;; you mentioned there may be some teeth missing from the flywheel. I had the same problem in 'Brick' the automatic. I waited too long & used the car while gettin' that whirring noise. In my case, it was the flywheel; it should be in your case too, because of changin' out three starters. Did the noise happen with a differant starter? That's important to remember. It'll eliminate one or the other.
In any case, you can have someone rotate the rr wheel in third gear while watchin' the flywheel with a flashlight where the starter engages the flywheel, lookin' for missing teeth. Glad your wiring got straightened out.
I thought you might be the one to find a place for your 'Tech Talk Day' since you're located in between most people. Maybe one of your sound installer buddies with a parking lot? Great idea. We won't get it too dirty! He might be able to sell a radio, too.
Happy Fat Tuesday,,,,,,,Greg

[Mike W.]

If your flywheel has flat spots, it will likely have 3, right at the compression cycles. At least mine did. No warning on the manual flywheel except one day on vacation when it just did a whirring sound. Good thing for a stick or else we would have been stuck in Bridgeport up in the Sierras until a replacement arrived. That would not have been good.

[Lenny D.]

Replacing the stock harness seems like it's going to be a pain in the a**.


Thanks a lot for all the replies and everyone's help. =D

Everyone, please remember, these cars were NEVER designed to last 30+ yrs. To say that they are still around (and (mostly) running) is telling...
When it comes to wiring, just because it's there doesn't mean it is working (properly). As those of you who are doing a total resto. know, you have to address everything, down to the tiniest screw. To the rest who are using an E12 for a DD or an occasional pleasure <w> car, you have to suspect anything that comprises a system in the car when gremlins lurk. That includes but is not limited to, wiring and connectors, most importantly. Heavy electrical loads (and grounds) take the most abuse, but the entire L-jet circuitry that operates down at microvoltage must be 100% correct for things to work as designed. So the entire wiring harness won't need to be replaced (unless it is compromised in any way) but specific items will need to be rebuilt or replaced.
Moral: Don't take anything for granted.

You're welcome.