E12 Oil loss

[braino]

So, just picked up my new E12 down in the OC on Saturday and drove it back to the Bay. The seller mentioned that it burned a little oil - turns out it burns A LOT of oil. Lost a little more than two quarts in the 500 miles back to Berkeley.

I'm assuming that this is way too much oil for it to be the valve seals. I know for sure that the bottom end is pretty high miles...

The odd thing is that there really isn't much in the way of blue smoke. I'm assuming that the TR probably burns a lot of the oil.

I'm hoping to get a parts car and would like to start building a new motor for myself. Probably just do the rings, bearings, bushings, have the head checked, etc.

Anyone experience this sort of extreme oil loss? I know it's not the head gasket...

cheers,
Brian

several Alfa Romeos
One BMW - '78 E12

[T.Hanson]

You can read the FAQ's, new to e12's and archives to answer a ton of questions you don't even know to ask yet. If your acronym OC translates to Orange County, CA., chances are you did good for step one: rust free. That's huge. Body rust pretty much makes all but the most minor fix questions an exercise in which window is best for throwing money out.

Car in the barn will use the floor as a drip, leak indicator. Common sense, diameter of puddle, location, time. If you just did a road trip odds are the 4,000 rpm for a few miles trick got done.

Time is marching on, but there still is a consensus bottom ends go nicely over 200,000 miles if anybody changed the oil a few times. Usually the heads need attention once or twice before that. That becomes a subject of discussion as each opinion includes budget and ownership intentions.

There are, were, heads around in bone yards. Good if local, bad if far away and you can't see what you're getting until you pay (heavy) shipping.

Do not, " Misunderestimate," the time you'll spend removing the head, or all the little things you'll want to clean, replace while you're there. Fun if you have another car to use, enjoy the sport, have the budget.

Until then you can look for obvious leaks ( around oil pressure sender, valve cover, front covers ), check the plugs for sludge burn, do a compression test. Maybe buy a can of Sea Foam and follow the instructions.

[cpalmer]

You bought a 78'? Did it pass smog?

Blow it out with Seafoam like T. Hanson said, and then change the oil and put in one quart of Marvel Mystery oil in replacement for one quart of normal oil.

I just did both those things. It should really help. How many miles on the car?

The seafoam should clean it all out pretty good and the Marvel will lubricate it all after and help the valve seals a bit.


What kind of mileage did you get on the drive back up to the Bay?

[braino]

You're meaning use Seafoam as to clean out the oil passages or in the fuel? Interesting proposition. Not sure how this would help oil burn but maybe you are thinking it will help mileage. It wasn't what I had expected coming back - maybe 23mpg on the freeway? That even seems optimistic.

One good thing - I just acquired a very nice parts car with a low miles engine. It has a later radiator that looks nearly new and a SPANISH cylinder head. Good stuff. I'm having it towed this weekend and will probably go through the motor a bit before swapping it into my red car.

I'll look through the forums a bit to see if I can find anything on rebuilds. As an Alfa person, we seldom just do rings / head-gasket. It's generally the whole enchilada - bearings, bushings, all seals, honing, valve seals, turn the crank. Seems like it makes sense if you have the money and spent the time taking an engine with more than 100K out of a car.

I'll be parting out the interior and other bits over the next month or so. It has a blue leather interior that's in excellent shape (the parts car, that is).

One thing I've been surprised about is how difficult it is to find a shop manual. Has anyone scanned one in - even a Haynes? I have nothing at this point and almost feel reluctant to start tearing a car down until I do. I said almost...

cheers,
Brian

[munkeeboi83]

Losing 2 qts of oil during a 6-7 hr drive is pretty extreme. I think you probably have some oil leaks somewhere. Have you gotten a chance to look underneath your car. I have some oil leaks near the oil pan gasket which I plan on fixing whenever I have a chance.

On my old Nissan Altima which has a lot of leaks, I took it to the "quarter car wash" where you feed it with quarters and can steam clean your car. I steam cleaned my engine bay and got rid of all the oil with a little help of some degreaser. I inspected under the car every few days until I found where the leaks were coming from.

SeaFoam is pretty amazing stuff, but I don't think it's going to help solve your oil leak problem. I made a post when I got my E12 running not too long ago. I hope this helps out.

http://www.firstfives.org/bboard/viewto ... ht=seafoam

[Mike W.]

You're meaning use Seafoam as to clean out the oil passages or in the fuel? Interesting proposition. Not sure how this would help oil burn but maybe you are thinking it will help mileage. It wasn't what I had expected coming back - maybe 23mpg on the freeway? That even seems optimistic.

23 on the road is on the good side of what to expect on mileage.

One good thing - I just acquired a very nice parts car with a low miles engine. It has a later radiator that looks nearly new and a SPANISH cylinder head. Good stuff. I'm having it towed this weekend and will probably go through the motor a bit before swapping it into my red car.

I'll look through the forums a bit to see if I can find anything on rebuilds. As an Alfa person, we seldom just do rings / head-gasket. It's generally the whole enchilada - bearings, bushings, all seals, honing, valve seals, turn the crank. Seems like it makes sense if you have the money and spent the time taking an engine with more than 100K out of a car.

Nope, rarely do you need to do all that. I've done a bunch of engines, one I put pistons in because they were worn, one I changed one piston in because it was worn and the rest I reused the existing pistons. Up to about .005" and you're fine. Cranks are forged steel and very rarely need anything more than a polish, even with 200K+ on them. Honing, yes, valve guide seals, definitely, they can cause huge oil consumption problems. 100K is low mileage for BMW engines.

One thing I've been surprised about is how difficult it is to find a shop manual. Has anyone scanned one in - even a Haynes? I have nothing at this point and almost feel reluctant to start tearing a car down until I do. I said almost...

cheers,
Brian

The big blue factory manuals are for sale every so often, the Haynes for this car is long out of print, but pretty good. Here is a online manual I just ran across yesterday, I should post in in a seperate thread just for reference sake.

http://www.bmwtechinfo.com/repair/main/index.htm

Here is some discussion on how to get the whole thing,

http://www.mye28.com/viewtopic.php?t=74072

[braino]

Heh. Yeah, there are definitely different economies of scale between Alfa and BMW. My Junior Z has a 1750 - which you can expect to get maybe 120K out of (well, the way I drive, maybe 100K) and that's probably the most reliable engine that Alfa ever built!

Funny, I just discovered the "big blue manual" last night. One came up on ebay and I grabbed it. Should be here in a few days.

What you're saying makes sense to me and fits my thinking. I'll probably pull the motor out of the parts car (after a compression check, etc) and just inspect stuff - see how far I need to go. I don't want spend unnecessary $$ but at the same time I don't want to swap in a motor that's not going to hold up at least 70-80K...

It would be nice to have at least some increase in performance as well. I'm going to keep my ears open and if a Lambda setup becomes available for an affordable price (anyone?) I'll swap that in at the same time. I found a great post yesterday on smog laws in CA and if it's correct, it's legal to upgrade to a later system as long as it passes inspection (you need to start out by talking to a smog ref, of course).

Big plans. Now all I need is money and free time

cheers,
Brian

[cpalmer]

The seafoam basically goes a third in the gas tank, a third in the oil, and a third suck an intake some where like the brake booster.

If you do have leaks though, the MMO make show them more and not sure you want that. If there is gunk/crud in the pan gaskets, it might blow them out if the are big. If they are small, will help seal them.

Sounds like you have a good idea of what you are doing and have some experience with cars.

Have fun and good luck!

[braino]

Cool - thanks for the seafoam info. Maybe I'll do that this weekend. Need to pick up some oil filters (BMW dealer?).

I have lots of experience working on cars but you know how it is, every marquee is it's own reality - from diagnosing, shortcuts, sourcing parts, people...

I was really into Volvos for a long time, then Datsuns (1600 Roadsters), then Alfas. It's the differences that keep it interesting!

I totally appreciate all of the info I've found on this board and that you've been sharing. At this point, nothing is too basic

cheers,
Brian

[T.Hanson]

Filters can be spendy at a dealer, selling to mostly new car folks with lawyer budgets.

autopartswarehouse.com, others on line have the same ( Bosch, Mahle, etc.) air, oil, fuel filters for about half.

For part numbers and ballpark dealer prices go to realoem.com.

[GripGreg]

Welcome! Here's my 2 cents; I wouldn't go Seafoaming til I changed the oil & all filters & gave it a complete tune-up & semi engine cleaning. Then check the mileage you get & how much oil you use or lose. Plus, then you know what's been done. I bought my '80 and drove it to Long Beach from Walnut Creek last year; it used about four qts. But not any more after about the same miles driven. Castrol 20/50 is everyone's recommendation I believe. Does your odometer work?
Why create a money pit? Unless you have the famed lawyer's wallet.
Please post pictures of both cars for us.
This is a great website, I've learned a zillion things here,,,,Greg

[GripGreg]

Sorry for the re-post; a coupla guys on this website plus my German car mechanic told me to never, ever use any platinum plugs. Go old school & use Bosch WR9DS, I think. (double check the numbers) The 's' stands for silber, whatever that means. The silbers are suppose to last longer.
Told ya I learned somethin'. Greg

[munkeeboi83]

Sorry for the re-post; a coupla guys on this website plus my German car mechanic told me to never, ever use any platinum plugs. Go old school & use Bosch WR9DS, I think. (double check the numbers) The 's' stands for silber, whatever that means. The silbers are suppose to last longer.
Told ya I learned somethin'. Greg

I have Bosch WR9LS in my car. (I believe these are the same as the WR9DS except for the longer tip, someone correct me if I'm wrong) I have some pictures in one of my posts when I got my car running and was doing all the basic maintenance. I hope this helps you out.

http://www.firstfives.org/bboard/viewto ... c&start=15

[braino]

Thanks for the tips, folks.

Ordered tuneup bits, points, condenser, filters, s-plugs, some new wires, etc. I'll report back on how things go. We're driving the 530i from Berkeley down to Palm Springs for my 40th bday this Friday.

Sorry, rain is interrupting photos :p

I'll get to them soon.

cheers,
B

[1st 5er]

Welcome to the fam... and good luck with the "oil loss" dilemma.